From: Lynn McIntosh [faiml@uswest.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 2:49 AM To: FAIMLanon; FAIML Cc: faiml@miamiferret.org Subject: FAIML #386; Feb. 7, 2000 Ferret Adrenal/Insulinoma Mailing List (FAIML) #386; Feb. 7, 2000 1. FAIML archives 2. ZackariClark2/7/00 3. Khobi update 4. Help for Isulinmic seizures 5. Phoebe, blue shoulders 6. blue shoulders 7. It's new hair growth 8. Reply: What else can I do? 9. Ultrasound testing post 10. where to get drenamin 11. Bandit died tonite :( 12. Bandit 13. Bandit 14. Bandit died tonite :( 15. Bandit died tonite :( 16. Bandit 17. Bandit 18. Michele and Bandit 19. Condolences 20. Bandit The FERRET ADRENAL/INSULINOMA MAILING LIST (FAIML) is a group that's come together to share support and information about adrenal and insulinoma diseases. FAIML comes out in digest format three to six times per week, depending on the number of posts sent, and their surgency. FAIML information is the opinion, only, of subscribers, mostly ferret caretakers. It is not medical advice, comes with no guarantee of accuracy, and is not meant to replace the examination and medical oversight of a qualified veterinarian. If your ferret is sick or exhibiting signs of illness take your fur kid to the most ferret- experienced vet you can find! A ferret- experienced vet is one of the most important services you can provide to your ferret. TO POST: Write POST at the end of your subject heading (the more specific you can be in your subject heading, the better) and send to . URGENT POSTS: If you feel the message is urgent please mark it POST URGENT and I'll send it out to subscribers as soon as I can, then include the message in the next list. CALIFORNIA RESIDENTS: Please write POST ANONYMOUS after your subject heading if you don't want your address or last name published. SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE: Just use the one address for posts, subscription questions, requests, cancellations, comments, etc. The list is run by hand so just send me an email. ADRENAL/INSULINOMA WEBSITE: FAIML ARCHIVES/PHOTOS: Past FAIMLs are being archived, with a search feature, on Michael Janke's adrenal/insulinoma web site: . Michael is also kindly posting pictures of FAIML subscribers and the ferrets at this site in the FAIML Album. Check out his site for more info. PAM GREENE's FERRET FAQs: I suggest people read (and reread) Pamela Greene's Disease FAQ's on Insulin and Adrenal diseases, as they offer a good background. I forward them to all new subscribers, and will gladly send them upon request. I also send the "Disease Package", a file that tells how to get all six of Pamela Greene's FAQs on ferret diseases. Pam also has excellent FAQ's about general ferret care as well, and a link to these may be found on the FERRET CENTRAL web site: . THE FERRET MAILING LIST (FML): The FML has 3,000+ ferret-loving subscribers and the topic is simply ferrets, ferrets, and more ferrets. Moderated by Mr. Bill Gruber, it's a great source of ferret entertainment and information. Visit FERRET CENTRAL on the web (see paragraph above) for more info on the FML. To subscribe to the FML, send email to its moderator, Bill Gruber, at and ask to be added. You can also try subscribing automatically by sending email to with the command SUBSCRIBE FERRET in the body of the email. 1. FAIML archives From: "Michael F. Janke" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:07:42 -0500 Just a note to let everyone know that I'm re-doing (again) the FAIML archives. The format I was storing them in was just too much for me to keep up with as I had to combine 10 issues then build each page manually. Also, ten FAIML's in one made for some looooonnnggg load times for each page. I was way behind and had lots of older ones that weren't available. There are still a couple hundred issues to upload, but it should go pretty quickly. They're now in raw text format and stored individually by issue number. What you'll get now is a directory listing of all the issues available by issue number. Simply click on the issue number and it'll open up. Obviously, this won't help you to find anything in particular, but the search function on the home page works well for finding topics of interest throughout the site, including the FAIML issues. If anyone is curious as to what FAIML #1 was like, it's there! If you would like to go directly to the FAIML page, try http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc/faiml.htm. For the ferrets, Mike * Michael F. Janke, mjanke@miamiferret.org * Secretary, South Florida Ferret Club & Rescue * A 501(c)3 not-for-profit corporation * * Shelter web site: http://www.miamiferret.org * Adrenal/Insulinoma web site: http://www.miamiferret.org/fhc MODERATOR'S NOTE: Thanks Michael! Keep up your good work. The website looks better each time I visit it :) Lynn 2. ZackariClark2/7/00 From: "keclark" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 18:54:54 -0500 Hello, from Zackari Clark Just a little update for all those who have sent us e- mails. Your wonderful out there, all you humans that love us little fuzzies. May body is healed completely. I have a wonderful new shinny coat. I eat for Mommy three times a day, not counting those little snacks. My medications seem to be helping my wheezing. I've stopped itching almost completely. I'm so glad about that. It would wake me out of my nap. Dr. Mary Green in the Tampa area is my vet now. Allot closer than our beloved Dr. Prezant. But he has made me feel so much better. Dr. Green says, my heart will start causing me trouble in the next year but my mommy and daddy will be there to hold my hand all the way. The heart will give out before the cancer can catch me, that's what she says. Thank you for all your prayer and kind words. From Zackari Clark ferret. Love to all your sick babies out there and those who have lost their fuzzies recently. My heart goes out to you. Lynn, keep up the good work. 3. Khobi update Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:36:15 -0700 (MST) From: Kim Cierpik Thanks to everyone who gave me suggestions about Khobi. Unfortunately, Khobi went to the Rainbow Bridge yesterday. She put up quite a fight, but at the end she didn't have enough energy to fight any more. I hope all of your fuzzy babies are doing well. Thanks and dooks to all, Kim 4. Help for Isulinmic seizures From: "Mary Tremblay" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:29:02 -0500 Rascal has been insulomic for a year now. He is a light weight and on .5 ml of diazoxide 2 twice a day and .25ml of prelone syrup twice a day. We find that he is very time sensitive to his medication, needs it every 12 hours. The hardest time is from his evening dose to his morning dose. We have found that if we make sure he eats before he goes in his cage at night and has favorite food in the cage he usually does all right. If one of us wakes up early we also wake him and let him eat. When this doesn't work and we find him lethargic, weak or drooling we give him slowly with an oral syringe 1/2 to 1 teasp. of Karo syrup. It can be a slow messy process - Rascal won't always let the syringe between his teeth, but the vet said he will absorb some through his gums, this makes recovery time longer. He makes a recovery and starts eating in about 20 mins. We did find that if he does not eat after an episode he will not hold down his medicine. Our experience is that the Karo gives him enough of a "jump start" to hold off giving him his medicine until he eats. The prelone says on the label it should be taken with food, which seems to have kept him from getting ulcers which sounds like a common side effect with insulinoma treatment. Thats all for now, any other tips would be appreciated Mary, Norm and the fuzzies - Rascal, Goofy, Bear, Nike, & Pheobe 5. Phoebe, blue shoulders From: "Karen Purcell, DVM" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:16:55 +0000 Kelly, > > My 4yr old female Phoebe has has both her left and right adrenal removed on > two seperate operations. The right had cancer and I was told that they > removed the majority of it and that it would most likely not cause any > problem. She did terrible after the second surgery. She did not have enough > hormones to survive having both adrenals removed. They say that it does not > affect most ferrets but it affected her and she nearly died until we spoke to > Dr. Weiss and he prescribed shots of DOCP every month. That was about 1yr. > ago and she has been doing well the shots are keeping her alive. I am not to > clear on why but I know they are. DOCP replaces the hormones that are missing due to the lack of adrenal glands. I don't know of anyone else that does this type of therapy. It is used alot in dogs with Addison's disease. > if you do please e-mail me. Know poor Phoebe is loosing hair agian after > only > having it back for less than a year. We have been struggling with this > adrenal thing since she was 1yr! Vets kept saying she was too young. Actually, the AMC in NY found adrenal disease in ferrets as young as 9 months. Both of her > adrenals are gone or mostly gone how could she be showing signs of adrenal > problems again. She is also very itchy. She has never had a normal coat > change I thought maybe this was it? We live in Albany, NY. My poor strange > Phoebe. She always has some strange ailment. Please help if you can!? Being itchy is a sign of adrenal disease, too. Have you thought about an ultrasound to check for regrowth of the right adrenal? If it wasn't all removed, it can certainly come back to haunt you. I'm originally from the Albany area - who's your vet? Heidi, >SNIP> > Last night we noticed that while looking down at her, her front shoulders have > a blue color. Almost a cyonotic blue. The color does not go across the > shoulders as there is normal skin color there. When you turn her over (amidst > her wigglies) the upper arm pit area also has this blue color. Though again, > it does not continue across her chest. This is a normal pigment change before hair regrowth in ferrets. Makes drawing blood samples much more interested! -Dr. Karen drkaren@world.std.com 6. blue shoulders From: Linda Iroff Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:53:00 -0500 Congratulations! This is almost certainly a sign that Silveretta's fur is growing back! For sable and other dark colored ferrets, as the fur is just about to erupt through the skin, it takes on a dark blue color. In a couple days, you should see the stubble come through. Many years ago, after my first ferret Belle was spayed, I saw dark blue on her tummy. I thought she had rubbed over some paper and gotten ink on herself! Linda Iroff 7. It's new hair growth From: "Heidi Lepak" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 20:36:40 -0400 I am in a state of shock at the number of responses I received regarding the "blue shoulders" of Silveretta. You are all such wonderful people and with the correct answer. Someone suggested I use a magnifying glass to look for new growth and YES, YES, YES that's exactly what it is. Such a relief after all the hearache of one ferret dying of surgery by a non-ferret vet and months of torment and guilt of not being able to do anything for Rocki and Silveretta until I finally posted the situation and got so many responses about the Lupron shots. I only hope the day will come, when I will be able to comfort someone as much as you all have comforted me. Thank you all, Rocki and Silveretta's Mom. We survived the Petsburgh Critique www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Zoo/3133 http://communities.msn.com/Ferret ICQ# 33966544 Defending those who cannot defend themselves! http://www.geocities.com/Petsburgh/Haven/2303 8. Reply: What else can I do? From: Lynn McIntosh Date sent: Mon., 7 Feb 2000 14:14:04 PST Hi. One thing that came to mind is to try weaning off the florinef. If I understand correctly it is used as a supplement after a bi-adrenalectomy. We have one little guy still getting a bit of it (he had a bi-adrenalectomy and vena cava ligation). However, if the adrenals are kicking back in, and it sounds like they may well be (they're very regenerative so tissue can begin growing back even if most of the adrenal was removed) I would think that the florinef (DOCP) would no longer be needed and might be adding to the problem. You could switch from the shot to the tablets (which is what we use) so that you could control the dose better. Dr. Weiss has advised us to try and wean our Gadzook off the florinef every two months, in case he regenerates some tissue and doesn't need it anymore. Anyway, that's what I'd try first, but I'd watch carefully for signs of anorexia and/or nausea and/or hind end weakness, signs that florinef is still needed. Good luck and keep us posted! Lynn >1. What else can I do? >From: KFor651676@aol.com >Date sent: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 14:34:04 EST >My 4yr old female Phoebe has has both her left and right adrenal removed on >two seperate operations. The right had cancer and I was told that they >removed the majority of it and that it would most likely not cause any problem. >She did terrible after the second surgery. She did not have enough hormones >to survive having both adrenals removed. They say that it does not affect most >ferrets but it affected her and she nearly died until we spoke to Dr. Weiss and >he prescribed shots of DOCP every month. That was about 1yr. ago and she >has been doing well the shots are keeping her alive. I am not to clear on why >but I know they are. I don't know of anyone else that does this type of >therapy. if you do please e-mail me. Know poor Phoebe is loosing hair agian >after only having it back for less than a year. We have been struggling with this >adrenal thing since she was 1yr! Vets kept saying she was too young. Both of >her adrenals are gone or mostly gone how could she be showing signs of >adrenal problems again. She is also very itchy 9. Ultrasound testing post From: "Debi & David Christy" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 09:32:23 -0600 < In a study at the Animal Medical Center in New York City (Dr Karen Rosenthal, etc.) only 50% of the diseased glands were diagnosed by ultrasound. In addition you would need a control group that was left untreated to compare adrenal gland size differences with. Thus the only studies are based on clinical signs and the most accurate test: hormone levels.> I'd like to add just a note based on personal observation & experience for the purpose of encouraging ultrasound testing in spite of the results of the above mentioned study. 100% of the adrenal tumors in my ferrets have been confirmed by ultrasound testing. One I suspected of adrenal problems due to an increase in aggressive behavior tested negative & has so far shown no other clinical signs. And here, I simply want to discourage the "wait and see" attitude we so easily adopt, so that this disease can be treated as early as possible before the tumor might become inoperable. Thank you for catching & clarifying the apparent reference to Lupron having been tested on dogs & cats. In editing my response I deleted some sentences that separated the reference to Lupron from the remarks concerning feline/canine research. Debi Christy 10. where to get drenamin From: "kelly grannis" Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 07:31:19 PST I got my last bottle of Drenamin from Standard Process in Wisconsin but now they say only Doctors can purchase from them. So where do I get it now? Do I have to have my vet get it? Thanks! Kelly 11. Bandit died tonite :( From: "msperling" Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 02:54:56 -0500 MODERATOR'S NOTE: I have posted Michele's sad message on it's own but am including it in this, the next, list, along with some of the many kind posts sent to Michele. Lynn It is with a broken heart I tell all of my fellow ferret lovers that tonite my beloved bandit died while having a seizure and being told from my vet there was nothing I could do for his seizures but sit and watch him and try once he was out of them to give him some food and water..Bandit was diagnosed this past November with insulinoma and was on prednisone .75cc's twice a day and proglycem .30cc's but still was having seizures since last Tuesday .I had to go the my vet beause another ferret I own is very ill with an ulcer and a mass on his pancreas and an enlarged adrenal and while he was taking care of him I asked about bandit and he said there is nothing I could do but sit it out and watch him seizure..I asked about surgery and he told me he could do it and I got the estimate and it was to have been $300..I was going to call later to schedual it but now its too late..Bandit is gone and crossed over the rainbow bridge.. To top it all of my computers hard drive died today and I am using a very old one but do not have any email address so I cannot post on the FML or the private emails I received today..so if anyone did has the FML address to post please let me know ..I would like my extended FML family to know I love you all for your love and support during this entire bad time I went thru with Bandit..and I appreciate each and everyone who emailed me privately.. I am glad I was able to receive this ferret list so I could let all of you know Bandit is gone and my heart is broken.. and I first have to call the vet to see the results for my other ferret and I wonder..if I tell him Bandit died if he will even care?? since he told me there was nothing I could do for the seizures and now its too late. excuse me for sounding so angry ..I am at my vet beause if there is a vet on this list is it true? that for an insulinoma seizure there is nothing to try to get them out of it..I watched for 5 hours tonite see bandit convulse then scream so loud he woke everyone up and then ..first another 2 hours he convlused and screamed then died..and for a seiuzre that started out with just staring and drooling there is nothing a ferret owner can do but watch?? I find that very hard to belive.. Michele whose heart broke tonite at 2am...:( 12. Bandit From: "dgweaver" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 19:32:25 -0000 Michelle, My deepest heartfelt thoughts and prayers are being sent to you. God can heal a broken heart, but in His own time. Gwen 13. Bandit From: "Kaye M. Porter" Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 10:51:45 -0700 Hello Michele. I send you strength and understanding; many times I have been through our beloved ferret crossings. I won't venture to comment on your vet, other ferret owners will probably have suggestions. Just know there are many of us that are thankful Bandit shared your love and care. Now he doesn't hurt and he has such loving memories. Lynn said it well, as she does. Kaye 14. Bandit died tonite :( From: Outlaw50@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 13:00:12 EST In a message dated 2/7/00 10:49:28 AM Central Standard Time, faiml@uswest.net writes: << msperling@mail.citnet.com >> Please know that my heart goes out to you on your loss. Those of us who know how heartbreaking that loss is wish we could hug you. The address to post to the FML is: ferret-list@cunyvm.cuny.edu In time, the pain will ease, but it will never go away completely. You have my deepest sympathy. Judy 15. Bandit died tonite :( From: KFor651676@aol.com Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:37:42 EST Our hearts go out to you Michele What a horror to have to watch your little fert go through such a thing. It seems there must be something you can do to stop a seizure from going on for so long. I work with people who have seizures and we give them medication to stop a seizure after 10min. sometimes we give it rectally. There must be something we can do for our ferrets when they are having seizures for too long. Neither you or your ferret should have had to go through such an awful experience. My deepest sympathy. I have had two ferrets with ulcers. I think you said your other ferret has one. Force feed, don't let your ferret go without food, it makes the ulcer worse. We had great success with carafate and force feeding. It took a long time for her to be well. Also treat with an antibiotic and we used Tagament for awhile as well. You probably already have this info by now but just in case 16. Bandit From: lynne wooldridge Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:17:19 -0600 Michelle, I am sorry to hear that you lost Bandit. I believe that at some point, seizures can become so bad that they lead to the decision to put the ferret to sleep or let them go naturally. I wish that your vet had offered you some kind of payment terms that you could have afforded for the surgery. I think that is where some of your anger and frustration is coming from. And, it seems unfair for these sweet little creatures to have these awful diseases to put up with. . . but they do. I hope that you can take comfort in the fact that you loved Bandit and he had the best care you were able to provide for him. Lynne 17. Bandit From: "Vicki L. Henderson" Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:29:16 -0500 Michelle, I am so sorry to hear about your loss of Bandit and his final hours. The only thing that I have heard that you can do for a ferret having a seizure is to try to get some Karo or honey on the gums with a q-tip while having the seizure, and if that does bring them out of it, to feed something high in protein right away. I am sure that you felt helpless to watch Bandit die like that. Our hearts and prayers are with you. -- Vicki L. Henderson-aka-Ferret Fanatic Ferret Xmas Ornaments: http://members.home.net/ferretfanatic Buzz, Woody, Miss Tizzy, Ginger Snap & General Kaos! The Fearless FLO! http://www.geocities.com/vlh1 Ferret Cross Stitch! http://www.geocities.com/ferretfanatic ICQ: 11898312 18. Michele and Bandit From: Glenn Johnson Date sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 12:28:44 -0700 Michele, my heart goes out to you. I understand, only too well, the horrible mixture of heartbreak, misgivings and rage that fills your heart. My first two babies, my Giorgi and my Gypsy, perished because I entrusted their care to what can only be described as , and in the kindest words possible, a lazy incompetent. There are many excellent ferret vets, some post here, they all give freely of their knowledge, they are but a phone call away for any inexperienced vet who seeks to learn. They cannot help the license holders who will be forever constrained to mediocrity by their own egos. The only way for the layman to recognize the license holders is to learn, learn, learn. But time heals. Bandit is at peace. The torment will fade, but the good memories will shine forever. God bless you and your babies, and all the Friends of the Ferrets. Glenn and Chuki 19. Condolences From: "Debi & David Christy" Date sent: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:22:19 -0600 Michele I'm so sorry you lost Bandit.. When something like this happens to someone I've tried to help, I always end up feeling like I didn't do enough... like, maybe I didn't word my advice strongly enough for fear of sounding like a "know-it-all" and now because I didn't make it sound urgent and critical enough, you've lost your baby. I've watched one die from a seizure, and even tho my vet and others assure me that I did all that could be done, there's still a big empty hole in my heart and my conscience that the rest of my fuzzies can't quite fill. 20. Bandit From: AngelFeret@aol.com Date sent: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 02:10:05 EST I was so very saddened to hear about the loss of the beloved ferret, Bandit. I run a ferret shelter and I, too, have a ferret with insulinoma that suffers from seizures quite often. Although it is very bad to give a ferret with this incurable disease sugary treats, it is a must when they are drooling and going into a seizure. I have received Dextrose from my vet, and it has also been suggested that I keep Honey or Karo Syrup on hand to use only in an emergency, as is the case of a seizure. Shame on any veterinarian to withhold this kind of information. Although it is not a cure, and it is not good for the animal, if it will bring them out of a seizure than it should be suggested to the clients. They can be reminded that it is not good for the ferret, but neither is insulinoma, and although surgery is often opted for, it is not a cure. Our first case of insulinoma underwent surgery, but her pancreas was so riddled with the disease that it only bought her six months. She enjoyed her life in those short six months, but we still wonder if her prognosis would have been the same had she not underwent the surgery. Our little boy now is getting Prednisone, and an occasional sugary treat before bed, as well as his favorite "duck soup" for dinner. These ferret who suffer from insulinoma have been given a death sentence, and their remaining time with us can never be estimated, but we can make their last few days, weeks, months, or even years with us as happy and memorable as possible. Rest in peace, Bandit, you are sadly missed yet fondly remembered. I can only hope that when the day comes that I pass away, I can go to the Rainbow Bridge and feel the kisses of the ferrets once again. Donna L. Carlsen Angel Ferret Shelter, Inc. ----------------------- End of FAIML #386 -------------------------